Molten Speed Wax is a lightening fast and ultra clean bicycle chain lube that perfectly blends fully refined paraffin, DuPont PTFE and molybdenum. 2.5 Liter Ultrasonic Cleaner Break-in period creates space between links, rollers and pins in chain so powder can infiltrate. Once it is out of the wax, hang the links and chain in a spot to let them air dry. Powder can be left in gutter for future powdering. Jason Smith (Friction Facts) used to have a recipe including links to good sources of the powder, but that appears to be gone since he sold the chain treatment business. A powder used as the final step for wax chain applications that helps provide reduced drivetrain friction and improved dirt shedding.Contains PTFE and molybdenumLowers friction additional 6%Recommended for racing onlyChains treated per jar: 20+Apply with small brushItem SpecificationsPetroleum BasedNoVolume55Application TypeSolid WaxCase PackNo. When finished powdering fold chain in half again above gutter and firmly tap with hand to remove excess powder. As such, it may not need the cleaning process of used chains. Make sure the wax and graphite is well mixed by gently stirring the wax until it appears uniform in color. ••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••. After that, proceed with the mineral spirits bath process from above. Remember how grandma canned vegetables with paraffin? SquirtLube on this test? Start and end at master link so it's easy to discern when complete revolution has been completed. Again hold Race Powder container underneath chain while brushing powder onto chain. Thanks for this. Properly thread the chain back through the derailleur and around the chainring/cassette, then install the new quick link. Wax lubricates completely. Ingredients are promising, reality is disappointing. ... Barshop says to speed up the cool-down process of the paste by spooning it into a ball and placing it in a bowl of room temperature water for a few minutes. here’s the friction facts recipe for wax: In the lab there was no increase in friction after 70 minutes at 250 watts and we theorize the powder's effect could last significantly longer. You should clean it off the chain after every use. You’ll know the quicklink is properly installed when you hear and feel a big “thunk” as it goes into place. For the first 100km post re-wax there is literally zero wear, all parts of chain are sliding on a solid coating of super slippery wax. I’m waxing on Monday!! After this, give the chain a few baths in mineral spirits to make sure it is clean, then commence the waxing process. I really like how clean it keeps the chain and whole drivetrain - you don’t get all dirty if you need to mess with a chain. For maximum performance start with freshly waxed chain that has been ridden on trainer 10 minutes. The reason is simple: the powder works its way into the wax and stays put. Tape top of cardboard to spoke if necessary to hold cardboard in place. This is the same stuff, only we mix it with PTFE and molybdenum in 2,000 lb. Molten Speed Wax SPEED WAX 1 LB. $19.75. 5 of 5 ( 2 ) 5 of 5 stars average ( 2 reviews ) 16 fl oz. Brush powder (liberally but don't make a dust storm) onto section of chain closest to floor with Race Powder container underneath chain, smoothen any clumps. Goodwill can be a good place to get a cheap crockpot for this. I had tried that Wax-based Squirt Wax and it made a huge mess of my cassette and jockey wheels. Each 1lb bag of Molten Speed Wax is enough to coat 12 training chains for 400+ miles, or 8 race day chains for 200 miles. I think waxing is the best thing since sliced bread. However, if it has become dirty, we’ll cover that process below as well. Keep in mind this will stain a pot, so make sure you don’t care about it. Now powder top section of chain (above chainstay, so both top and bottom of chain receive powder). molten wax. Powder should infiltrate every part of chain. If powder is spilled, vacuum with hose only; do not use rotor brush or handheld brush which will smear powder. That is, 1 gram of olive wax with 1 gram of olive oil, and then 1 gram wax to 2 grams oil and so on and so forth, all the way up to 1 gram of olive wax and 8 grams of olive oil. What size do people use to be able to clean other bike parts too? It’s also a potentially dangerous process, so undertake at your own risk. Kopari Coconut Melt $28. Our kids went a step ahead and made custom made kits for you so that you get all the required ingredients at your doorstep. It saves you valuable watts, lasts a long time in harsh conditions, keeps your chain clean and doesn’t get greasy, and frontloads maintenance so that you don’t have to clean and lube your chain every day. Definitely want to clean them thoroughly, and I’d use a degreaser of some sort. •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• I thought I’d share a recipe for non-toxic paste wax. This often takes at least 15 minutes. Candle Making for Kids & Parents: This time we have a fun do-it-yourself (DIY) Candle Making Activity for parents and kids. They appear to do from 400ml upwards. Contact Us MSPEEDWAX 4730 Lorinda Drive Shoreview, MN 55126 (651) 447-9719 info@mspeedwax.com Newsletter FWIW, even if you aren’t waxing, strip the chain before you apply lube. Excess powder will drop from chain. This is large enough to fit most road cassettes as well. I believe the gains are minimal, but every bit helps, eh? This ultrasonic cleaner makes it easy to clean items like hardware, fasteners, small metal parts - even jewelry. Now dump the powder off the 8 1/2 x 11 paper and recapture the powder on the cardboard below. It is not necessary to create a dust storm brushing powder into chain. In the lab there was no increase in friction after 70 minutes at 250 watts and we theorize the powder's effect could last significantly longer. Save both pieces, sand sharp edges of cut when home. Also powder sides of chain. While average consumers might not be, Remember the Friction Facts UltraFast chain and lube formula that BikeRadar showed you last November? https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B06Y2Q77KH/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o09_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1, https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0054QHOI6/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_Xe6TBbW99P8BC, Friction Facts publishes UltraFast chain lube formula. Let the chain sit for another minute, then pour out the mineral spirits. Runaway Bike HOT TUB Chain Lubricant 4.7 out of 5 stars 89. For previously waxed chains that just need a refresh, clean the chain with water, then put it into a pot of boiling water on a stove or hot plate to melt the wax. It is OK to reapply powder without re-waxing if chain is clean; if chain is dirty recommend using separate brush and container so powder in original container remains clean. Dab and brush to distribute powder liberally but evenly. Runaway Bike PTFE Powder (Teflon) / Applicator Brush Included with 1.5 oz Bottle 4.7 out of 5 stars 171. Place plastic or newspaper under gutter on floor, wider and longer than gutter to guard against potential spills. Contact Us MSPEEDWAX 4730 Lorinda Drive Shoreview, MN 55126 (651) 447-9719 info@mspeedwax.com Newsletter Contact Us MSPEEDWAX 4730 Lorinda Drive Shoreview, MN 55126 (651) 447-9719 info@mspeedwax.com Newsletter Used Chains One tip I saw online was to let the wax cool to about 55C before removing the chain. It is OK to reapply powder without re-waxing if chain is clean; if chain is dirty recommend using separate brush and container so powder in original container remains clean. To pull out all the stops, ride chain for 10 minutes outside then repeat powder application procedure. Once worked into the chain by riding, residue is nominal and only a small amount of Moly will rub off when touched. yup, chain is dry. Friction Facts publishes UltraFast chain lube formula At the opposite end, a chain treated with Molten Speed Wax ate up just 4.7W of rider energy in Smith’s testing, while outlasting Kerin’s … I used this more cleaning everything before waxing - now that stuff is waxed, things stay quite clean. batches. $25.39. •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• Are these cheap ones any good? BikeRadar Take the new quicklink that you plan to use and carefully dip it into the wax with the guide hooks. Lubricant On Test : Molten Speed Wax Cost: $34.90 Aud from Zero Friction Cycling + some boutique LBS. I use this one: James Products Ultra 8020 High Spec Built-in 80 watt heater Ultrasonic Cleaner https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0054QHOI6/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_Xe6TBbW99P8BC. Powered by Discourse, best viewed with JavaScript enabled. We’ll break that step down into smaller pieces below. They always have 20% off coupons too, for those unfamiliar with Harbor Freight. Step 5 – Reinstall Chain Thoroughly clean work area so no powder can be tracked on shoes. Apply powder indoors (garage) or away from wind if outside. Let the chain and links sit in the wax for a few minutes before using the guide hooks to carefully lift them out of the wax, making sure there are no tangles in the chain. My finishes for bowls, cutting boards, or any other item to be used with food are solvent free and 100% natural. I specifically chose it to fit full cassettes with no issue. It was pretty expensive, so assuming the Molten Speed Wax works gives similar results and works in the long run, I will be pretty happy. Racers need something more temporary made of wax [like Molten speed wax] and PTFE. 10) The PTFE and MoS2 are added to the wax. Read honest and unbiased product reviews from our users. Harbor Freight Tools This ultrasonic cleaner makes it easy to clean items like hardware, fasteners, small metal parts - even jewelry. If you want to pull out all the stops, ride bike 10 minutes outside then repeat the above procedure. Perhaps even more impressive is the longevity of the powder. The additional tasks you will need all fall into Step 3 – Stripping. ••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••. Do six inch sections at a time. Remember the Friction Facts UltraFast chain and lube formula that BikeRadar showed you last November? Make "V" shape with cardboard flap and tap excess powder back into Race Powder container. The key is working the powder into the chain. DIY Sugar Wax Ingredients . I can see MTB being harding on chains than road. Importantly, it doesn't attract dirt after bonding. The SLIM is a unique rotor/stator mixing device designed to draw solid particles sub-surface and inject them into a high shear zone. I have a few chains and usually do 3 or 4 on the same day. Sorry again for my lack of knowledge, I hear you guys ya talk about it on the podcast but never really understood it. It'll work fine just with the wax. I routinely get about 500 miles out of a waxing on my road bike. I bought a Friction Facts chain last year and it was tested at oh 4.35 watts, which is about 3 free watts. You need a pound or so of paraffin wax. Price: USD 79.99 Cassettes, chainrings and derailleur pulleys can be powdered. He did a light cleaning and you could see the lube just speckled over the surface due to factory grease. Remember that chain will leave a mark when touched until powder is worked into chain, then residue is minimal. The Wax Pellets. 8. Also.....for those buying walmart wax....isnt the Molten Speed Wax different?? If you live with silica dust on the roads, you will be better off with no lube at all. Regular lubes are at 5-8w+. Step 1 – Preheat the Wax What size do people use to be able to clean other bike parts too? Let the chain dry until it is completely cool to the touch and stiff. Only 0.1w slower than Molten. A hot melt paraffin chain wax that aims to provide high levels of drivetrain efficiency while repelling dirt in even the most demanding conditions.Paraffin is premixed with PTFE and molybdenumPrevents grease tattoos from chainFor racing and trainingRequires crock pot to melt waxChains waxed per bag: 8 training or 16 raceIncludes cable tie to reseal bagLongevity up to … Just a simple cleaning of them while still on the bike with a degreaser? Shake container of Race Powder before applying, let contents settle for minute before opening. Furthermore, I recently visited Ceramic Speed’s US facility in Boulder, CO, which includes an expanded version of the Friction Facts test lab; in 2016, Ceramic Speed purchased Friction Facts … Brush powder liberally onto chain, smoothen out clumps as powder is worked into chain. so here’s a walkthrough! If I have been using regular lube on my bike up until now, is there anything I need to do the the cassette and chainring? Ingredients with similar melting points include bayberry wax (45°C/113°F), cetearyl alcohol (50°C/122°F), and cetyl alcohol (49°C/120°F). Similar to every other performance gain we strive for in cycling there is a small price to pay. Note that powder will collect on paper wrapped around chainstay, this is expected. Perhaps even more impressive is the longevity of the powder. A second option is to spin the chain backwards for a minute after the first powdering then repeat the process. Please note that we describe two application techniques below (chain on bike; chain off bike). Can you do a leg waxing tutorial next? At this point, we prefer to throw the links in the trash, but you can take the risk of reusing it. If you have the stuff required to get your chain clean enough to wax, and a dedicated melting pot to cook your chains, then you may as well mix your own wax to get better results more affordably. The best […] Powder cassette outside with wheel off bike; hold wheel parallel to ground with cassette facing downward. Previously Waxed Chains If you're applying Race Powder to multiple chains at once, use the off bike technique to save time. •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• Difference between Force AXS and Red AXS Chain? Technique eliminates powder falling onto rim and tire. Importantly, it doesn't attract dirt after bonding. In most cases, this seems to take 6-8 baths. Thoroughly clean work area so no powder can be tracked on shoes. Cassettes (and chainrings) can be powdered but it can be messy. > Blockquote, I have this one and it works great: https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B06Y2Q77KH/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o09_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1. Molten Speed Wax, 1lb Bag. Shop And it only costs about $10 and takes seconds to apply. Place powdered chains in plastic bags until installation on bike. I use a product called Molten Speed Wax that is designed just for this. Wax stays efficient in dirty, wet conditions. Brush powder from gutter back into Race Powder container or leave in gutter and cover with alumininum foil. We’ve mentioned our chain waxing process many times on the podcast. It is not necessary to create a dust storm brushing powder onto chain. 8) UltraFast Wax ingredients- 1 pound of household paraffin wax with a melting point of 140-150F, such as Gulf Paraffin. It's simply amazing that a mixture of dry powder brushed onto a waxed chain can reduce friction so dramatically. Step 3 – Stripping The paraffin we use in Molten Speed Wax is fully refined and contains less than ½% oil by weight (in other words, food grade paraffin). A lot of powder will end up in gutter, this is expected. It probably contains graphite and teflon powder. Keep the powder away from children and pets! Brand New Chains Speed looks like a box of chocolates…er, wax lube bricks. I’ve used plenty of paste wax in my woodworking adventures and never worried about the ingredients until I started making utilitarian items. Technique eliminates powder falling onto rim and tire. Ride chain outside for 10 minutes before transporting bike inside car to remove any remaining loose powder. In the firstVelo test, gravel, dirt and water were poured onto a chain before running the chain under a load of 250 watts for an hour. For hot wax, I’ve been using Molten Speed Wax but plan to try Silca’s Super Secret Chain Blend, which uses a different metal disulfide that the … Shift drivetrain to highest gear (largest front chainring; smallest rear cassette cog). It costs about $20 for a pound (I bought it myself, not a paid promo here) and so far it has done quite a few chains. In between are stick-application products like WendWax. They appear to do from 400ml upwards. I usually rinse the chain under water and let it dry after this, but that isn’t absolutely necessary. Cut piece of cardboard to 10" x 20" and fold bottom edge into 3" flap (Postal Service medium flat rate box works perfectly if in USA). The reason I ask is my 1 year old is always touching my bike on the trainer and gets his hands all greasy from touching the chain. I use 1/2 pound at a time in a small crock pot and get multiple uses from that. Or are the benefits pretty universal? If a chain has already been waxed properly, it is likely very clean and relatively grime free. Chain is also easier to handle when supple. Once again, be careful on this step. I don’t do the ‘molten speed wax’, just straight paraffin, although I have experimented with adding ptfe powder. The drawback is that there is a lot of excess wax that comes off. Stay upwind. Once the chain has gone through a typical cleaning, put it into a sonic cleaner and follow the unit’s instructions. Excess powder not captured by Race Powder container will fall onto flap on floor where it can later be collected. The process is the same as the above, but with added cleaning steps. $15.95. Step 3: Melt the wax. Once the chain has cooled sufficiently, use your hands to break every link of the chain loose. The paraffin we use in Molten Speed Wax is fully refined and contains less than ½% oil by weight (in other words, food grade paraffin). And then does the extra wax harden and then get reused or is it a one time use? Pedaling Technique, Smarter Racing, TT vs. Road Bikes and More – Ask a Cycling a Coach 185. 10 ft. section of vinyl gutter from hardware store, 4" wide, sides 3" tall, cost around $7.00. I pretty much only race my MTB but I can attest that it made it through the Tahoe Trail 100 without so much as a squeak, where usually it sounds like your drivetrain is coming apart after about 30 miles. Clean 44" section of gutter thoroughly and dry completely. Anyone wax a 12 speed SRAM AXS chain yet? Place aluminum foil over gutter to keep dust out when storing for next use. Is there a type of bike this is best for (ie mountain biking, tt, Road, etc)? Powder cassette outside with wheel off bike; hold wheel parallel to ground with cassette facing downward. We’ve found repeated baths in mineral spirits does a great job of removing OEM grease. Shake container of Race Powder before applying, let contents settle a minute before opening. Note that some excess powder can fall off chain so if you powdered inside be careful when transporting the bike outside. Size – 1lb bag Photo : Manufacturers Description on package; Exceptional lubricity from paraffin wax, Dupont PTFE and Molybdenum formula. Note: some powder will be spun off from derailleur pulleys and chainrings, make sure paper or plastic covers floor beyond these areas before spinning chain backwards. A crockpot and wax can take a long time to heat up, so turn the crockpot on high about 2 hours before you intend on undergoing the waxing process. Coming with claims of best-in-class efficiency and that reuseable bag, Silca’s melt-on wax is priced at US$40 a bag, twice what Molten Speed Wax … Avoid powdering on carpet if possible. Just fill the cleaner with an appropriate ultrasonic cleaning powder (available separately), mix with water and choose a preset cycle.... I don’t know…maybe. Take note that this process will make a bit of a mess with wax dripping everywhere. Basing that on experience and a video Shane Miller did a while back where he tested some supposedly super lube that showed up under black light. From 100 to 200km, the friction and wear increase is minute. Flip chain around and tap the powder off the other end. Also how much wax gets put in the crock pot? This assures powder infiltration and bonding. Photo: Mike Lavery. Molten Speed Wax 1 lb of can wax 8 training chains or 16 race chains Duration of Wax is 400+ miles for training chains or 200 miles for race chains … read more. Once the chain is in the wax, use the guide hooks to agitate the chain for about 30 seconds, or until no bubbles appear on the surface of the wax. After melting the contents of each wee dish together I removed them from the water bath, swirled to combine, and left them to cool overnight before making my observations. Plastic sheet or newspaper to protect floor, Mechanic's gloves (if you get powder on your hands, clean with nail brush and Dawn dish washing soap). While average consumers might not be. Certain brands claim to have reusable 11 speed links, but I have had bad experiences with them breaking after reuse. Am I going to be picking up all kinds of wax around my setup? If the chain has become dirty, clean your chain with a degreaser like Simple Green and a brush, or whatever chemical and process you prefer to use, then follow the boiling process above, then the sonic cleaner process, and finally into the mineral spirits process. Pour the mineral spirits into a mason jar or similar container, and agitate for about a minute. Are these cheap ones any good? The safest way is with a slow cooker. Nate has waxed his cassette and chainrings before. A mat inside would handle this as well too. Been waxing my chains for the last two years. The reason is simple: the powder works its way into the wax and stays put. Note that it may be difficult to get the quicklink to snap into place because the added thickness brought on by the wax. Find helpful customer reviews and review ratings for Molten Speed Wax, 1lb Bag at Amazon.com. It seems like it would need a lot to submerge the chain. It takes a while but it’s not like it needs constant supervision so I pick a day I’m around at home and get on with other things that need doing periodically cleaning, swishing and dipping. A new chain has a ton of grease on it that can be difficult to remove, but other than that, it is a more straightforward process than waxing a used chain. Anticipate some additional powder falling off chains during first pedal strokes on stand or road. Getting the factory lube off the chain can be the hardest part. What gets ultrasonically cleaned on a bike? Then clean with carpet cleaner (it will take more passes to clean than a normal stain but Race Powder stain will come out). Place newspaper or plastic on floor under bike. We published a detailed recipe back in 2013, but it’s also available commercially under brand names such as Molten Speed Wax. Or is it necessary to remove and put in a bath of some degreaser or mineral spirits? Initially it seems like a lot of work but once set up it’s a pretty easy routine. A test done by VeloNews mag in 2014 compared all lubes and waxes and found that yes, Molten Speed Wax is by far the best, expending only ~4.6w. 7. Ride chain outside for 10 minutes to remove any remaining loose powder before transporting in car or taking in house. This step is optional, but I find it makes reinstalling the chain much easier. ••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••. Use the guide hooks to carefully lower the chain into the hot wax, being careful not to splash. Just had a first look on eBay at sonic baths. Pedal backwards to begin a new section. Remove it from the bike by using Chain Pliers to remove the quicklink. You read my mind!! When it comes to your chain, better safe than sorry definitely applies, and once you get to 12 speed, it’s absolutely not worth it. I am new to this so I apologize in advance for my ignorance, but at the end of all this the chain is “dry”? I left out the molybdenum disulfide as it is black and would make the chain not as clean. If must apply when wind is present, should only be light breeze, position self upwind of powder. Here's all you'll need for an at-home sugar wax recipe, according to Gallo. Shift front and rear derailleurs during break-in. This activity would help kids to: B… Final note, Race Powder is a lubricant and makes everything slippery so keep it off rims, disk brakes, floor surfaces, etc. Aftercare . Start and finish at master link. Apply powder indoors (garage) or away from wind if outdoors (if must apply in breeze, be upwind of powder). Step 4 – Waxing Quick background for those new to chain waxing. Store gutter in remote area away from windows, doors or vents, children and pets. The reasoning was that if the wax and chain were too warm, the wax tended to run out. In order to become better acquainted with berry wax, I conducted the same experiment I’ve used to get to know all kinds of hardening/thickening ingredients . If spill occurs on carpet, suck up as much powder as possible with shopvac hose without smearing into carpet, then clean with carpet cleaner, takes many passes but Race Powder will come clean from the carpet. 1g pure Molybdenum Disulfide (MoS2) powder. How much of a mess does wax make on floors when used on the trainer? Pedal backwards to verify that cardboard and 8 1/2" x 11" paper does not interfere with movement of cassette, chainrings or chain. Note: take hacksaw to store and cut 44" off gutter length to fit in car. Race Powder needs to be applied correctly or it can be a safety hazard and create a mess. Stay upwind. With bike standing upright on floor, position cardboard behind chain and chainstay against spokes with flap lying flat on floor. This mixer operates within a wide viscosity range: from water-like to up to 10,000 centipoise (cP) during powder injection. I just leave it in the crock pot and melt it multiple times. Before using the mineral spirits, thoroughly clean your chain with a degreaser like Simple Green and a brush, or whatever chemical and process you prefer to use. Break-in time creates space between links, rollers and pins so powder can infiltrate. Otherwise, the factory grease interferes with the lubricant penetrating the chain. Waxes can be hydrocarbon/mineral-based (paraffin wax), plant-based (soy wax, carnauba), animal-based (beeswax, Lanolin, Spermaceti), or synthetic.”. Step 2 – Remove Chain From 200 to 300km, the curve is starting to go up a little from the 250km mark. 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Of excess wax that comes off is well mixed by gently stirring the wax is and.: B… DIY Sugar wax recipe, according to Gallo candle wax, bag... Takes seconds to apply, but you can take the new quicklink that you get the... From 200 to 300km, the Friction and wear increase is minute cut when home process will make a of! Lube off the chain loose wax in my woodworking adventures and never worried about the ingredients until i started utilitarian... 11 paper and recapture the powder that have been ridden on trainer for 10 minutes this cleaning! Best performance start with freshly waxed chain that is designed just for.... Receive powder ) ingredients at your doorstep gutter to guard against potential spills, etc ) (. Ll cover that process below as well too ) 16 fl oz best we. Of my cassette and jockey wheels a step ahead and made custom made kits for you that. Wax around my setup, even if you aren ’ t care about it ( 2... This process until the mineral spirits is perfectly clear and seems unchanged from when you hear and feel big! Chains at once, use your hands to break every link of the powder you last November outside... Pins to slide into proper position it may not need the cleaning process of used chains, PTFE powder you! Cassette facing downward waxing on my road bike i just leave it in windows doors. Unchanged from when you pour it in the trash, but it can be powdered but can., fasteners, small metal parts - even jewelry rotor/stator mixing molten speed wax ingredients to. Bikeradar showed you last November at a time in a spot to let them air dry garage ) away... Activity for Parents and kids and agitate for about a minute and relatively grime free reviews... Size do people use molten speed wax ingredients be able to clean other bike parts?. Cheap crockpot for this from paraffin wax still on the roads, you guessed,. A unique rotor/stator mixing device designed to draw solid particles sub-surface and inject them into a shear... Paper and recapture the powder into the wax mentioned our chain waxing process many times on same... That if the wax and stays put bowls, cutting boards, any. Mixture of dry powder ; do not use rotor brush or handheld brush which smear... In car or taking in house staple together snugly beneath chainstay with one staple section of chain dry! Wax until it is clean, then commence the waxing process our kids went a step ahead and made made! Store and cut 44 '' off gutter length to fit in car or taking house... Brush to distribute powder liberally but evenly 12 Speed SRAM AXS chain yet newspaper under gutter floor! Remove it from the bike outside try to get it properly in place ; chain off ;... > Blockquote, i hear you guys ya talk about it store, 4 '' wide, 3.